Blog inspired by a post by seadragon – “fAitH enVy (or the lack thereof)”
Maphet alerted me to this conversation and I recall reading a reference to it on eebmore’s blog as well. My spiritual journey really began when I came to the very real conclusion that God did not exist. This was for many of the same reasons that are echoed here in these comments, not needing/wanting a crutch of religion, there was no empirical scientific proof, ignorance is bliss is still ignorant, there can be no understanding of life except through science. This agnostic approach to life is something that I held to believe very strongly. I didn’t even like the term atheism because it still seemed to be subscribing to some order of religion, even if it was disorder. This was a passing feeling as I identified more and more with professing atheists than theists, and soon found myself in heated debates proclaiming, “There is no absolute truth and you are so weak minded to believe in a god!” I owned this statement. I lived this statement.
Anytime someone would bring up religion around me, my friends would cringe and plead for me not to get started. It was a feeling of immense power and control to have such a strong understanding of who I was and what I believed. That it was tangible and I could point to tried and true tests of the truth of my beliefs. It was also very lonely in my universe because I sat at the head of it and as far as I was concerned, I was god over my own perspective of the universe. This too brought about feelings of stress and despair that also seemed to be echoed in these comments. Thoughts like, “What happens if I lose control?” or “Is this really all there is to life, because it ain’t much?!”
I would agree with Colliculus, that all science is based on faith as well. How faith plays a role in jwer’s thoughts on the scientific method of hypothesis/testing is that once you have completed the test and found your hypothesis to be true or false, you must have faith (a belief) that the next time you complete the test without changing any variables your results will be the same. I would disagree with eebmore when he says, “us nontheists and those theists will never really ever get each other” because the agnostic/atheist/nontheist writing this post has become a professing Christian/theist/believer in God.
My conversion took place more than 3 years ago now and many of those struggles and those answers have become so clear to me. My fears of ignorant bliss melted away, my misconception of absolute truth vanished, my security and comfort in knowing there was a plan and purpose for my life washed away my despair. I was finally free of the necessity to be totally in control. The realization that my crutch in life was having a personal relationship with a loving Father, a forgiving Son and a renewing Spirit; this is what brought the triune God into such clear focus for me and changed my life so drastically.
True faith goes well beyond simply “wanting the benefits of a belief in God” or even lacking the “feeling of openness”. In fact, true faith is liberating and breaks us free of the bindings of this world. Faith does not constrain or restrict, though it may certainly seem that way for some. It believes that the variables of this world are not changing and that the hypothesis that God exists, is proved and evident throughout all creation. What is a simpler or more perfect (as Aristotle would put it) answer to receive?
1) Chaos & Chance - The big bang started all creation and we evolved from tiny organisms to the complex animals we are now through millions of years of evolution and Darwinism, thus when we die we have completed the cycle of life and it is all over.
OR
2) Plan & Purpose – God created this world and man in His likeness, redeemed us through His son and has an eternal afterlife waiting for all who believe.
Just ask William of Ockham, namesake to Occam’s Razor.
To learn more about my conversion feel free to read My Testimony.
Thanks for your comment on my blog. I read that comment, this entire post, and your testimony. And I have to say, that I really don't understand what changed in you. You said that you read Romans and suddenly something changed and you were suddenly willing to believe in the entire story of God, Jesus Christ, etc.? What exactly did you read? Is Romans what you recommend to other people to read? Or do you think it was just the act of reading the Bible, whatever part that happened to be?
Also, I thought you were arguing against the idea of accepting God just because of the "benefits" (e.g., life has meaning because there's a plan), but then... isn't that what you ended up doing? You didn't seem to give any reasons for why you suddenly decided to believe.
I don't mean any of these questions sarcastically by the way. I'm genuinely curious to know what you think.
Posted by: seadragon at July 30, 2004 07:31 PMLet me start-off by saying how truly happy I am that you took the time to read what I wrote and think about it. In some way’s I believe I was purposely vague, begging you and anyone else who took the time to read to continue to dialog with me about this. I can see that you are being genuine and in no way took anything you said sarcastically.
To get straight to the point about what changed in me, the transformation that took place in my heart that very night while I read the book of Romans, was that the very Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit entered my heart and I was born. This is also known as a re-birth and you may have heard the term Born-Again Christian, which I know can be offsetting to people and when you enter into a dialog about the metaphysical or supernatural it can sound so strange. Actually, the term born-again Christian is a redundant term, because all Christians, by definition are born-again of the Spirit.
So what does that physically, tangibly mean to be born of the Spirit? Does that mean that I instantly understood the entire message of the Bible and believed the entire story? Not exactly, not at all. What it most tangibly means is that I surrendered the belief that I was in control of my life, to God. More specifically, this means I put my faith in the salvation message of Jesus Christ. There was a moment of clarity, a moment where things seemed to snap into focus and all at once I understood that the entire story of God, the Bible, was actually the source of all truth. The foundation that absolute truth is built upon is the rock of God.
You ask what exactly was I reading and I’ll excerpt some passages below, but the fact of the matter is, having a belief in God, in Jesus Christ is having a personal relationship with Him. Just as we each have our own fingerprints, that say who we are, so does God communicate to us on that personal level that will be different for everyone and show us who we really are.
Romans 8:
9-10 “You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness”
15-16 “For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.”
28 “And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.”
31 “If God is for us, who can be against us?”
There is so much there in this chapter alone, but I would recommend reading Romans to anyone. Because the author, the Apostle Paul, reveals so many biblical truths in this book in such a summarized and condensed way, that it would be very fruitful to read. Like I said though, God speaks to us all in a very personal and particular way. You ask about the act of reading the Bible itself and of course I would say this is a very good idea in general. Prayer is how we speak to God, and the Bible is how He speaks to us. His truths are revealed on each and every page. Thus, what seems to jump out at me may not seem apparent to you, and vice versa.
In my testimony I share the main reason for my conversion. “I have been transformed from a boy that could do everything himself to a man that could not live without Christ in his life…Everything I do on a daily basis is because of my love for Christ. Not because I want to go to heaven and this is the only way, but because I truly love the Lord with all my heart. I would not be where I am today, if it was not for having Christ in my life.”
This is the answer, this is the reason. Hoobastank would say this, “i've found a reason for me, to change who i used to be, a reason to start over new, and the reason is you [my God]” While they may not attribute that reason to God, I know that I most certainly do. My life is lived to fulfill God’s purposes and plans, and not my own. It is a life that I have freely laid down, out of love and reverence to Jesus Christ. There is no denying the look to the heavenly reward, but the focus is on serving God, right here and right now.
So I thank you for continuing the dialog with me about this and I am certainly open to any responses, retorts, “you are just plain crazy”’s or further questions you may have. You are also more then welcome to join us in church some Sunday. Poke around my blog enough and you’ll see where.
Posted by: Jeff Price at July 30, 2004 11:02 PMMe again. So... really, I'm completely overwhelmed by all the comments on my blog, and even your previous comment on this post of yours. So again, I think I'm hardly responding as much as I should.
I don't want to say that you're crazy, in spite of you offering that as a potential response. :)
What does totally baffle me is why some people just feel this clarity and others don't? And why you? What made you, someone who was so "logical" or whatever, to "surrender the belief" that you were "in control of your life". Is that really what it was?? That you believed you had control over your life?
If so (and again, not meaning to be sarcastic), I am not surprised you came to believe in God because I think everyone reaches a point where they realize that they don't have control over their own life. I mean, even atheists don't necessarily think that they have that kind of control.
It seems to me that it's an entirely different thing that I would have to abandon in order to believe in a God. I feel that I would have to abandon rational thought. And without giving all the arguments for that, I'll just say this... that no one has ever given me a rational explanation for belief in God. They usually turn to their personal experiences of reading God's Word (capital W?) and suddenly feeling/knowing that it's the truth.
Doesn't it seem to you that coming to a "truth" that way... that you could be wrong???
(Again, not meaning to be sarcastic. Those extra question marks mean that I want to emphasize that question!)
Posted by: seadragon at August 3, 2004 12:48 AMI must commend you for your open and honest dialog about this. I appreciate your perspective on this and know you are genuinely seeking to understand my view. This is a trait that is not shared by enough people in this world. Quite frankly, I’m glad that you are overwhelmed. Because it means you understand the gravity of this topic and do not take it lightly. I urge you, that no matter what I say or anyone else has to say on your blog that you continue to seek truth.
I think that is the unifying idea behind our points of view. What is truth? How do I define it?
The Biblical answer to your question of why some people feel clarity and others don’t is because God has chosen certain people to call His own. “For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.” (Deuteronomy 7:6). Now is that a suitable answer for someone that views the Bible as a work of fiction? Of course not, but that is still the answer. You cannot seek to understand the God of the Bible, without looking at Him directly. That means reading the Bible and not just talking about it.
The reason a person turns to personal experiences when explaining their “rationale” for believing in God, is because having faith in God is about having a personal relationship with him. Can you give very concrete reasons as to why you love or have a relationship with your boyfriend/husband? Can you explain that moment when you realized you loved him for the first time? These are very hard expressions of humanity to put into words, but very easy to experience when we are open to them.
You look for a rational explanation for a belief in God and that is what I have been trying to lay out here but I'm not certain how well I have done that. I will say this though. When you look at the intricacies of the human body and how all these systems work together, and then how both the male and female come together in a very specific way to procreate. What seems more probable to you:
a) That it all happened through millions of years of chaos, which somehow landed us where we are today
OR
b) That a creator made all that you see, to fit together so perfectly
Do you think that any scientist can re-create this experiment in a lab? Furthermore, I would contend that reason, logic, rationale and even truth come from God. So why look elsewhere for these explanations? Why not go to the source? You may not see it as the source, but then why ignore the very real possibility of a truth that so many other people have found? Why not give yourself that same opportunity to find answers there?
There is no abandonment of rational thought when one believes in God. There is simply an incorporation of the metaphysical, the spiritual, and the super-natural aspects of life into that rational thought.
Yes it is true that at one point I thought I was in control of my universe and that not all atheists believe that. My view changed when I realized I was not in control, but it wasn’t to a theocentric world view. I then became a deist, which is the idea that something started the “big bang”, but that something does not have a continued relationship with its creation. A visual I used to explain this was someone blowing their nose into a kleenex and throwing it aside. You have this multitude of things happening in the tissue, but you aren’t really concerned about any of it.
I think the most important thing for you to realize and it was what I realized, that I was not a perfect person but I was perfectly made. I realized that I was not intrinsically good and needed to look elsewhere for that righteousness. There is an amazing true story that you should read and it is one that I promise will change your life. There is a man in this story, and he wants to be your friend. He wants to show you a love you have never known. You have to ask yourself, “Do I want to listen?”
I pray that you do.
Posted by: Jeff Price at August 3, 2004 09:33 AMMy responses... Of course, we were bound to end up at this impasse (as I view it), but I really appreciate your long answers to my questions. Here are my responses, and I hope my explanation as to why I still don't find good enough reasons even to spend the time reading the Bible. I imagine that sounds to you like I'm just blowing it off (as if I think I already know everything), but it's really more a matter of not wanting to spend my time following paths that seem to me to be flawed. (And actually, I will read more, I'm sure. I'm just not going to devote a chunk of time to it right now.)
1. You say: "The Biblical answer to your question of why some people feel clarity and others don’t is because God has chosen certain people to call His own. ... Now is that a suitable answer for someone that views the Bible as a work of fiction? Of course not, but that is still the answer."
When I hear these kind of answers, I find myself frustrated that there's always some answer, written somewhere in the Bible, that is a non-testable kind of answer. A "doesn't it make sense that way" kind of answer that I really can't address. But that's fine. You're right. To someone who believes that the Bible is divinely inspired (or whatever level of divinity you place in the Bible), that is the answer.
My impression is that it's people who want to believe. That is, people who are willing to close their eyes to rational thought and just believe in a story that seems to make sense and then they don't have to be uncomfortable with not knowing, with not understanding, and with potentially having no "greater plan" which suggests to them that they have no purpose in life.
But then again, you would probably agree with me on some level, except instead of vulnerability or weakness, you would call it having an "open heart" and a "willingness to listen to God's word" or something like that. Right? And again, I don't really have any response to that except to note that maybe this isn't the best place to focus this conversation, if it's really subjective what the cause of this "openness" is.
2. You say: "The reason a person turns to personal experiences when explaining their “rationale” for believing in God, is because having faith in God is about having a personal relationship with him. Can you give very concrete reasons as to why you love or have a relationship with your boyfriend/husband?"
No, it's very difficult to put this kind of thing into words. But I don't use those feelings as the basis for my belief that my boyfriend/husband (boyfriend, in my case) exists. I have that belief based on things like, his physical being respects the laws of physics (e.g., he can't pass through walls) and things like that. Of course, even that could be wrong (i.e., the idea that each of us is living our own dream), but I have to say, I think there's more tangible, testable reasons to have confidence that my boyfriend exists than that God exists.
3. You say: "When you look at the intricacies of the human body and how all these systems work together, and then how both the male and female come together in a very specific way to procreate. What seems more probable to you: a) That it all happened through millions of years of chaos, which somehow landed us where we are today, OR b) That a creator made all that you see, to fit together so perfectly."
A. Definitely A. Though whether it's truly "chaos" is debatable, but I don't care so much about that. This is more about my rejection of B.
Let's take A. Given millions of years, from a Darwinian (or some such analogue) perspective, things are going to work out the way they work out. Things that don't work out, well, don't work out. What's left is what works at the time.
Now take B. Talk about Occam's Razor. How is throwing a complex creator into the mix giving you a simpler explanation? It raises so many unanswered questions and makes things unnecessarily complex, in my view. And worse, there is nothing about complexity, intricate design, or perfect fit (however you want to put it) that necessitates a creator. It just passes the buck, so to speak.
4. You say: "Do you think that any scientist can re-create this experiment in a lab?"
Can they recreate creation? They're working on it.
5. You say: "Furthermore, I would contend that reason, logic, rationale and even truth come from God. So why look elsewhere for these explanations? Why not go to the source? You may not see it as the source, but then why ignore the very real possibility of a truth that so many other people have found? Why not give yourself that same opportunity to find answers there?"
Why look elsewhere? Because just saying that "reason, logic, rationale and even truth come from God" does not make it so. Just the fact that the Bible may say that (and I wouldn't know), doesn't make it so. But reason, logic, and rationale have served us incredibly well in understanding the world around us, "confirming" certain things and rejecting others. So yes, it makes sense to use those to understand the world. If that's looking elsewhere, well then it is. But to abandon that seems kind of ridiculous if you're really interested in understanding the world.
6. You say: "I then became a deist, which is the idea that something started the “big bang”, but that something does not have a continued relationship with its creation. A visual I used to explain this was someone blowing their nose into a kleenex and throwing it aside. You have this multitude of things happening in the tissue, but you aren’t really concerned about any of it."
O.K. That's just gross. :)
And by the way, there are some theories out there that don't even necessitate the big bang. Rather, it could be an infinite series of big bangs (and I'm talking about the sheets of time/space "flapping in the breeze" theory, not the theory in which the universe periodically expands and contracts), which would remove the concept of "beginning". (What that does to our philosophy of time, I don't really know...)
7. You say: "I think the most important thing for you to realize and it was what I realized, that I was not a perfect person but I was perfectly made. I realized that I was not ntrinsically good and needed to look elsewhere for that righteousness. There is an amazing true story that you should read and it is one that I promise will change your life. There is a man in this story, and he wants to be your friend. He wants to show you a love you have never known. You have to ask yourself, “Do I want to listen?”
When people say “Do you want to listen?”, what I hear is "Are you ready to suspend rational thought?" And my response is, no, I'm not ready for that. You may think I'm blowing this all off without ever having really read the Bible, but my reason for never having devoted lots of time to that is because no one has ever given me a good enough reason to think that it will give me the answers I'm looking for. No one has ever given me a good enough reason, even, to think that the Bible really is an accurate source of information. What I would have to do, apparently, is realize things like that I'm not a perfect person and that I'm not intrinsically good, but these are not things I ever assumed in the first place. And to be honest, I'm not "ready" to look in a book for ways to attain that "righteousness" through a belief in something that seems to me to be so ungrounded in reality and rationality.
******
I do want to say that I really appreciate this dialogue. And I'm certainly willing to continue it, though I think for my part, I've at least partially gotten out of it what I was looking for, which was to try to better understand why some people believe and others don't, and what forms the basis for that belief. Unfortunately, I don't completely understand it, as a lot of it seems to be intangible!
It does seem to me though, as I've talked to lots of people, that no one has ever come to have a faith in God through the scientific means that we all talk about when we are talking about using science to understand the world. If that's the method I adopt to understand everything then I may not ever have a faith. (Supposedly the two are compatible, but it seems to me that they're compatible only if you give them each their own domain to rule over.) So I don't mean to pre-emptively end this conversation with you, but if we have reached a sort of impasse, that is o.k. with me, as I did not come to convert or be converted. Just to have a bit of dialogue and try, again, to understand how people come to have a faith, particularly people who strongly rejected it in the first place!
I think we can sum up your 7 points with, “I’m not ready to suspend rational thought.” With the exception maybe of number 6, that just grossed you out apparently. However, I don’t think this is what you are really saying. This is how you have reasoned it for yourself because you view and feel very strongly that a belief in God is a surrender of rational thought, but this isn’t the case.
It is more than just me or the Bible saying that, “reason, logic, rationale and even truth come from God”. The scientific method is built on the foundations of truth, reason, logic, assumption and proof. I would offer up that God is the foundation of truth, so I would not agree that you cannot find God through science.
If indeed there is a creator, then he would be the rule maker for all that there is in the world. An architect designs a building and controls the flow of people in and out of the building. They operate within his creation and are bound by the walls that he sets up. This holds true for creation, but goes a step farther. This creator is holy and righteous and loves his creation. He loves them so much, that he sends his own son to die for them.
I think what you are saying in reality is not, “I’m not ready to suspend rational thought”, but “I’m not ready to surrender my life to my creator.” It is good that you continue to pursue truth. I’m afraid though that you will never find a “good enough” version of any truth, when it is based on completely subjective terms. There is no such thing as a perfect argument and no amount of reason or logic will ever yield that result. Someone can always find a flaw, based on their perception of reality, their version of the truth. Without the rock of absolute truth, you always build your house on sand.
I understand you don’t see spending time reading the Bible as being fruitful. It is a big book and can seem like quite an undertaking. I would suggest that you get your hands on a copy of Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis, but this is no substitute for the Bible. However if you are looking for a good logical, philosophical, spiritual journey he will certainly help to set you on that path. By the way, he was a former atheist as well.
Jeff,
I noticed your track back. The comment thread is getting kinda interesting.
You may want to rejoin the conversation. Up to you, of course :-)
The Dawn Treader: How Does An Atheist Become A Christian?
http://dawn_treader.blogspot.com/2004/11/how-does-atheist-become-christian.html
Blessings,
Jeff
Posted by: Jeff at November 9, 2004 05:35 PM